Bathrooms, changing rooms, and the transgendered

tango

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This one seems to be a bit of a hot potato at the moment, so I figured I'd throw in some thoughts.

As far as which bathroom the transgendered should use, there's clearly one school of thought that says they should use whichever bathroom they feel comfortable using, while another school of thought says they should use the bathroom corresponding to their birth gender (in other words if you have boy bits use the boy's room; if you have girl bits use the girl's room).

I can't help thinking the best solution is neither of the above, but a totally different approach to changing rooms and bathrooms.

At present it seems the norm is for changing rooms to be segregated by gender but aside from that to be wide open spaces so nobody has any privacy from anyone else within the same room. That, I believe, is the crux of the problem. Not who uses what room, but the assumption that privacy should not be expected.

The first question we might consider relates to who supervises which changing areas. I'm sure there would be an outcry if a male teacher were left to supervise the girls' changing room, but to address the wider issue we need to consider why this is. It's pretty simple, we can reasonably expect a male teacher to have desires towards naked girls in the changing rooms and those desires are considered inappropriate. But that immediately raises the question of whether a gay male teacher should supervise the boys' changing room. After all, if the concern is that the adult in charge may have desires towards those under their supervision a gay man supervising naked boys should be just as much a concern as a straight man supervising naked girls (it relates just as much to a straight woman supervising the boys' room or a lesbian supervising the girls' room, but for brevity I won't explicitly list all permutations going forward).

The exact same issue applies to the issue of a boy using the girls' changing room. The suggestion that a boy should be allowed to use the girls' room because he identifies as female causes alarm, for much the same reason as it would cause alarm if a male teacher were supervising the girls. But with the same reasoning, why is a straight boy in the girls' changing room looking at the girls any more a concern than a gay boy in the boys' changing room looking at the boys?

It seems to me that the best solution is one in which everybody has privacy. So instead of worrying who goes into which room, divide the rooms into cubicles and put proper doors on the cubicles. None of the silliness seem in bathrooms where anyone standing next to the wall can just look over the top, put full height doors on them. At a stroke bathrooms can become unisex, where anyone needing the bathroom goes into the room, picks a cubicle, does what they need to do, and leaves. You don't need to worry about who is in the next cubicle, what they have between their legs, how they self-identify, what they are doing, you just get on with what you need to do and leave.

Likewise in changing rooms you go into the changing room, pick a cubicle, change from one outfit into another, and leave. Again you don't need to worry who is in the next cubicle because you can't see them and they can't see you.

On top of making the ongoing issue of the transgendered go away, on a wider scale it seems to solve a number of other issues as well. If you're a father with a 9-year-old daughter and want to take her swimming, what do you do? Do you leave her to fend for herself in the female changing room, or do you take her into the male changing room with you? What if your daughter is 18 but sufficiently disabled that she can't change herself? Individual cubicles mean the two of you can share a cubicle and, once again, nobody else needs to worry about what is happening behind the closed door. If you are with a parent/sibling/spouse who is infirm or disabled and of the opposite gender, you just go into the unisex facility and you can give them whatever help they need.

It seems to me that a solution like this solves the problem of which facility transgendered people should use while at the same time preserving the privacy of everyone else. It turns the problem from something relating purely to the transgendered and turns it into a change that can improve things for everybody. It ceases to be about changing everything around for the benefit of a small proportion and instead realigns things to benefit everybody.

Are there any downsides, aside from potential concerns about the cost of implementation, to an approach like this?
 

psalms 91

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That actually makes sense to me, I looked at this thread and was ready to advocate for using the bathroom corresponding to ones sex but this is an easy answer I think
 

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Yes that's much better. Toilets for men here, I don't let my boys go there. I take them with me to the ladies room where they have closed doors. Sometimes dads come there too with their girls.
Last year we went to a swimming pool, so I take them to the closed rooms at the ladies part, but there's also showers and those women were just showering there together. Hush hush boys, don't look. My goodness. The next time I did it in the garden there, just put a towel around them.
 

tango

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The first time I encountered a unisex bathroom was in a restaurant in Covent Garden in central London. At first it seemed rather odd but that rapidly vanished as I realised how easily it all worked. Pick a cubicle, do what needs to be done, come out, wash your hands, and go back to your table. They even had a big fountain-style sink where you used a foot to press a bar running all the way around it to activate the water (hence you don't need to touch anything with freshly cleaned hands), and when you lifted your foot off the bar the water stopped.

It was quick, simple, and above all it just worked. Apparently research shows that men are more likely to wash their hands after a bathroom visit if women are present (and it's not as if any privacy is needed to wash hands), so maybe this sort of thing can also improve hygiene.
 

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In school we had this male teacher who accidentally always had a question for the girls just at shower time lol. My brother is 8 years older and they had the same teacher and the girls from his class also complained about it. Unbelievable, noone said anything about it. Don't think he ever got fired.
It was always: hurry up, get your towel, he's coming.
 

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I'd like a sound proof cubicle then please, tango. And smell proof. Blah. I've walked past the men's bathroom as the door opened at work once before and NO THANK YOU ;)
 

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I'd like a sound proof cubicle then please, tango. And smell proof. Blah. I've walked past the men's bathroom as the door opened at work once before and NO THANK YOU ;)

Why is soundproof necessary? Is the sound of someone grunting in the adjacent cubicle any more or less troublesome because of their gender? If the walls are full height that will do a lot to reduce sound and smell. Although it's not as if men have a monopoly on foul smelling deposits in bathrooms... last time my wife ate something that badly disagreed with her I was glad we had a second bathroom.
 

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Why is soundproof necessary? Is the sound of someone grunting in the adjacent cubicle any more or less troublesome because of their gender? If the walls are full height that will do a lot to reduce sound and smell. Although it's not as if men have a monopoly on foul smelling deposits in bathrooms... last time my wife ate something that badly disagreed with her I was glad we had a second bathroom.

That was weird in Canada. They had those walls that weren't to the ground, so if you came in you saw the feet of the people sitting there.
 

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That was weird in Canada. They had those walls that weren't to the ground, so if you came in you saw the feet of the people sitting there.
Pretty much how it is herre
 

tango

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Pretty much how it is herre

When I've been to a public bathroom in the US I've often felt a bit awkward because I'm tall enough to see over the top of the cubicle walls. I can't say I have any desire to watch strangers in the bathroom but when standing at the urinal right next to the cubicle it just feels like nobody has any privacy.
 

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True and thats why you have to depend on bathroom etiquette, you know keep your eyes straight ahead
 

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True and thats why you have to depend on bathroom etiquette, you know keep your eyes straight ahead

Sure, but when you're done at the urinal and is time to leave you gotta turn around to get out. I don't understand why they have such a lack a privacy in the bathroom.
 

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When I've been to a public bathroom in the US I've often felt a bit awkward because I'm tall enough to see over the top of the cubicle walls. I can't say I have any desire to watch strangers in the bathroom but when standing at the urinal right next to the cubicle it just feels like nobody has any privacy.
Is that with those pee things for men? Those are not locked here, not even something between them, only normal toilets are totally closed.
 

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True and thats why you have to depend on bathroom etiquette, you know keep your eyes straight ahead

Well better look at the ground at the other side when you have to walk past the men's room to go to the ladies room. They're even too lazy to close the door. Some Dutch guys just pee on the street, so now they made these urinals for outside.
Holland, the summum of decency:

45_big.jpg
 

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Sure, but when you're done at the urinal and is time to leave you gotta turn around to get out. I don't understand why they have such a lack a privacy in the bathroom.

I don't get it either. I don't let my boys go there. I don't want them to see grown up men peeing. Dennis Jernigan was with Sid Roth. He's a former homosexual. He said he became homosexual because of a man in the men's room doing filthy stuff when he was a boy and he saw it.
It's just asking for problems.
 

Josiah

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Some of MY (not-worth-much) thoughts....



1. I think this whole thing is mostly just a power ploy of the LBGT community flexing it's political muscle as everyone "cow tows" to them in liberal political correctness. I'm SURE there have been "transgender" people for 100,000 years and this was never a issue at all..... until this community got a lot of political power.


2. Frankly, I'm not sure why it matters SO much. Women's restrooms all have petitions around the toilet - no one (male or female) can see a thing, it's quite private. IF men's did better petitions it would be the same there. No one sees anything. I think this is more psychological than anything, with little changes, public restrooms would be unisex with little problem.


3. When I was a "tween" and younger teen, I was on the swim team in the town where I grew up. Of course, the showers/changing rooms were segregated but there was no attempt whatsoever at privacy. I never gave it a moments thought but of course it would have been a whole different enchilada if the girls could see (although, come on, those speedo racers left very little to the imagination, lol). There COULD have been gays among us (that thought NEVER ONCE entered my mind) but (for reasons I cannot explain) I'm not sure that would have bothered me as long as they didn't "hit" on me or in any way "ogle" me. I can appreciate how THAT situation would not be too different that having a girl among us but (again, for reasons I can't explain) just would have been very different.


4. Private, "Family Restrooms" are increasingly popular..... Since I think the transgen crowd is like two-tenths of one percent of the population, they might solve the whole problem, just make more restrooms private "family" ones. I actually went to a pizza place that USED to have a men's restroom and a woman's restroom. It simply removed the urinal in the men's (replacing with a toilet) and made them both "Family Restrooms" with a big notation when you entered to lock the door behind you. Makes sense for places where use is fairly light (it would a different matter at the ballpark or at Disneyland, obviously).


5. IF I had a 5 year old little girl...... and waited outside the women's restroom for her to do her thing.... and in walked a 48 year old MAN.... I'd panic. But then, I'd LOOK for a Family Restroom and I might just prefer to take her with me into the men's.




I don't get it either. I don't let my boys go there. I don't want them to see grown up men peeing.


It's now rare to have one-big "trough" or urinals without petitions (still exists, but rare). The great majority of urinals have petitions on both sides that make it impossible for anyone to see anything. And men "zip up" BEFORE they turn around (although, little boys occasionally don't, lol). I think it would be EASY to install such petitions where they do not currently exist, and then another petitioning off the urinals themselves (although not all are large enough to do this).



- Josiah
 
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tango

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Is that with those pee things for men? Those are not locked here, not even something between them, only normal toilets are totally closed.

Those are the ones. Personally I hate them. I don't really want to be squashed into a space that isn't really big enough and have other people peeing right beside me, the general lack of privacy being justified purely by the fact that everybody has the same bits. Frankly I'd be very happy to see them abolished and replaced with regular cubicles with a bit of privacy.
 

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Some of MY (not-worth-much) thoughts....



1. I think this whole thing is mostly just a power ploy of the LBGT community flexing it's political muscle as everyone "cow tows" to them in liberal political correctness. I'm SURE there have been "transgender" people for 100,000 years and this was never a issue at all..... until this community got a lot of political power.

I suspect you're right, and another advantage of simply turning everything unisex is that it takes that power away. If the LGBT community truly wants to be treated just like everybody else they got their wish, everybody goes into a cubicle and they don't get to crow about how special they are and how they have very specific needs that impose on everybody else. If what they want isn't to be treated the same as everybody else they will have to find something else to whine about.

2. Frankly, I'm not sure why it matters SO much. Women's restrooms all have petitions around the toilet - no one (male or female) can see a thing, it's quite private. IF men's did better petitions it would be the same there. No one sees anything. I think this is more psychological than anything, with little changes, public restrooms would be unisex with little problem.

I can't say I'm familiar with the women's rooms but in the men's rooms it would be pretty easy to look over the top of the cubicle. At least it would if you're fairly tall (like I am). I can't say I have any desire to watch a stranger in the bathroom (male or female) but at the same time can't say I care for using a bathroom knowing that just about anybody could just peer over the top of the wall. Still, if that happens the toilet brush makes a handy missile...

3. When I was a "tween" and younger teen, I was on the swim team in the town where I grew up. Of course, the showers/changing rooms were segregated but there was no attempt whatsoever at privacy. I never gave it a moments thought but of course it would have been a whole different enchilada if the girls could see (although, come on, those speedo racers left very little to the imagination, lol). There COULD have been gays among us (that thought NEVER ONCE entered my mind) but (for reasons I cannot explain) I'm not sure that would have bothered me as long as they didn't "hit" on me or in any way "ogle" me. I can appreciate how THAT situation would not be too different that having a girl among us but (again, for reasons I can't explain) just would have been very different.

Swimsuits generally don't leave a whole lot to the imagination but the logical progression from there is that we might as well not bother with them. I'm not sure how well that would go down, although there are assorted nudist/naturist groups that do just that. Years ago I used to swim regularly, and the swim session I attended was right after the local nudists had the use of the pool. They filed out (thankfully dressed by then) and everyone else filed in.

4. Private, "Family Restrooms" are increasingly popular..... Since I think the transgen crowd is like two-tenths of one percent of the population, they might solve the whole problem, just make more restrooms private "family" ones. I actually went to a pizza place that USED to have a men's restroom and a woman's restroom. It simply removed the urinal in the men's (replacing with a toilet) and made them both "Family Restrooms" with a big notation when you entered to lock the door behind you. Makes sense for places where use is fairly light (it would a different matter at the ballpark or at Disneyland, obviously).

Even somewhere with huge levels of traffic you don't specifically need segregated rooms, just put a decent cubicle around each toilet bowl and the process the same for everybody - go into the room, pick an empty cubicle, do what you have to do, and leave.

5. IF I had a 5 year old little girl...... and waited outside the women's restroom for her to do her thing.... and in walked a 48 year old MAN.... I'd panic. But then, I'd LOOK for a Family Restroom and I might just prefer to take her with me into the men's.

The unisex bathrooms cater for this kind of situation perfectly. If your daughter was 18 and disabled, if you were with an infirm parent of either gender, if your wife needed help going to the bathroom, whatever, you do the same as everybody else - pick a cubicle, do what you need to do, and leave.

It's now rare to have one-big "trough" or urinals without petitions (still exists, but rare). The great majority of urinals have petitions on both sides that make it impossible for anyone to see anything. And men "zip up" BEFORE they turn around (although, little boys occasionally don't, lol). I think it would be EASY to install such petitions where they do not currently exist, and then another petitioning off the urinals themselves (although not all are large enough to do this).

There are still a few of them in England. I don't think I've seen one in the US. In general the urinals I've seen in the US (and most of the ones in the UK) have some sort of screen that mean you'd have to specifically want to see the guy next to you doing his thing and do something very visibly different from the strict eyes-straight-forward expectation. I still hate using a urinal and will usually use a cubicle if one is free.
 

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Why is soundproof necessary? Is the sound of someone grunting in the adjacent cubicle any more or less troublesome because of their gender? If the walls are full height that will do a lot to reduce sound and smell. Although it's not as if men have a monopoly on foul smelling deposits in bathrooms... last time my wife ate something that badly disagreed with her I was glad we had a second bathroom.

Soundproof? Where I work women don't make the loud noises in the bathroom that men do! I don't want to hear it. And yeah the men's bathroom is far worse in smell than the women's.

Our cubicles have openings at the bottom and tops but also on each side of the door so anyone washing their hands looking into the mirror can get a small glimpse inside one of the cubicles. No thanks.
 
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