I would die for Jesus

Not too many Christian martyrs in the USA right now (are in some countries of the world)...

I would hesitate to volunteer for the role.... but I hope I would be willing if I was pitted between denouncing Christ or being a martyr...

I highly suggest the book "Silence." It will serve as one tool to stir your faith and thoughts on this....

Hmm.

Some years ago, I knew an older couple who attended the same church as me at the time. The man was a muso and we both appreciated the same types of music and he was pretty laid back. We became friends.

His wife was slightly debilitated due to medical issues. Although she did manage to get out and mingle a bit she mostly just stayed home and watched mind numbing television. With respect to this(television), she bored me to tears "catching me up" on all the garbage she made part of her life and her mind.

But, she was a Christian also and no sooner had I met them that I was told of her miraculous experience, and reminded of it throughout the years I knew her.

To summarize: According to her story, while in hospital due to an aneurysm in her brain, the equipment monitoring her vital signs was showing she was clinically dead while her body was up and about and singing and praising Jesus. According to her, all the doctors and other staff that witnessed this were amazed. That is not an exaggeration, and it turned out this was a major part of her "testimony" in a nutshell.

What did her husband say about this when him and I were alone? He actually didn't say much except: "she was a different person before her aneurysm". This was said with some resignation, not enthusiasm. I got the distinct impression that he was not only not impressed, but that the whole experience was a cross to bear for him, not a source of faith, or joy. He also warned me not to confront her directly on her experience.

Later, as him and I became better friends, I found out how deep the tension ran. She didn't want sex with him. It was "dirty" and not in line with her hyper spirituality. Of the flesh. Part of the "sinful nature". She was above that now with what she called the witness of the Spirit and her testimony. She was also clear that she didn't think he was on her level of the faith, and this I witnessed in numerous ways through her angry outbursts.

Not only touched by the very hand of Jesus, she described herself as a "prayer warrior" and would often "counsel" the downtrodden and weak in faith with her testimony. Apparently she thought I was one of those, because although a believer, I had certain misgivings about aspects of the faith, and I got to hear her miraculous story again and again. I began to suspect over time that there was an element of pride and vanity in this - part of her need to be relevant in the church community as a whole. At one time (and I don't remember how), I questioned her experience or some aspect of it, and her reply was:

"If you don't believe me, you can ask X, as she was there when it all happened".

X was a nurse we both knew and were friends with. I didn't bother asking X for the longest time but one day when I had her apart from my two friends I asked her point blank what she knew of my friend's miraculous account. The answer was plain and as follows:

"I really have no idea as I was not there. She says she had this miraculous experience but I really don't know."


Truth at last.

Some time later, I moved and was not in contact for some time. After some years, I inquired of someone who also knew the couple and found that they had divorced and she died not long after.

What's the moral of this true story? I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's clear that faith built on a lie not only will not ultimately impress your friends as you think it does, it may actually help them be better doubters, and because of the pride and vanity attached to it, may help destroy a relationship also.

Lämmchen said:

That's an odd little story, Strav. Of course I wasn't referring to miraculous experiences (or lies about them) but instead relating that God could use us in our suffering. We might not know what little ways He's using us even. For people who want to fight for Jesus but are upset when they have to fight for their lives, they don't see the relevance of God at work. But it's nice to know that our suffering isn't for naught even though we have no idea in what ways it's been used to benefit His kingdom.

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It may seem odd to you, but it is a true story. I have not embellished it one whit.

As for disease and some sort of witness to God, it seems to me that Christ did this best when He actually healed diseases, not proclaiming to the sufferers that they would continue to suffer as some sort of means of character witness to His glory. This may seem harsh, but it is the typical fallback position when a person asks for miraculous healing and it's not granted.

I can drink a whole lot of alcohol in a short time, throw up, get possible alcohol poisoning and suffer with smiles, but none of it glorifies God.
I can drink a bottle of pure nicotine and suffer and possibly even die in short order due to the poison, but none of it glorifies God.

I can eat a diet rich in animal fat (Torah condemns) and after a time, suffer and eventually die of heart disease, but none of this glorifies God.

Taking the default position that "God made it so" is avoiding responsibility for actions (in the short, or longer term) and placing the blame on God while maintaining that it was His Will that it be so really doesn't glorify God. Even if it's done with thank you's and smiles.

Have you had the surgery yet Lamm?

I am always polite to people at the clinics and hospital, too. They are there to help us after all.

Stravinsk said:

What's the moral of this true story? I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's clear that faith built on a lie not only will not ultimately impress your friends as you think it does, it may actually help them be better doubters, and because of the pride and vanity attached to it, may help destroy a relationship also.

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At my previous church there was a lady who never missed the chance to share testimony of the great things God was apparently doing in her life. Most of them were so utterly mundane I'd be embarrassed to claim them as evidence God was showing favor to me, like the time she was lost and prayed about it and by the grace of God she found her way home (this in a city criss-crossed with major routes and surrounded by an internationally known ring road). For myself, if I heard her endless testimonies through the ears of a thinking non-believer I think my doubts would be strengthened on the back of this mysterious God apparently doing nothing better for his people than any reasonably competent adult could manage for themselves.

That said I think Lammchen has some very good points here. When people are facing serious illness or death and maintain their faith in God regardless, it's a lot more noteworthy than when someone who is wealthy and healthy professes a faith that God is there for him. It's much easier to praise God in the good times, when everything is going well. When people still praise God in the bad times it's more noteworthy - I certainly pay a lot more attention to people who follow God even when it costs them something, than in people who say they follow God but abandon ship at the first sign of trouble.

Lämmchen said:

My pastor brought up a point in church on Sunday that in the US the period when people went to church the most was during the Great Depression. Living through hard times brings people to God as they realize they aren't in control of their lives.

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One thing I often find curious is when people who insist there is no God then turn around after a natural disaster and ask how a deity that apparently doesn't exist could have allowed it.

Stravinsk said:

She didn't want sex with him. It was "dirty" and not in line with her hyper spirituality. Of the flesh. Part of the "sinful nature". She was above that now with what she called the witness of the Spirit and her testimony.

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Sounds about right. Most Christian monks and nuns will tell you this: the more time you devout to praying and seeking God, the more you lose interest in sex and the filthier the act itself seems to you.